Is Curitiba the right place for a Start Up Development and support office? Salaries? Cost of Living?

Assuntos Gerais
#1

Hi Everyone,

I am looking at Curitiba (and surrounding area) as a place to start a small IT firm - development, services, and support.
Before I make my mind up, I have many questions, but the most important is:
What are the average Salaries for Java programmers (Swing mainly) with 3+ years of experience?
I will probably start off with 1 Architect, who will help plan the project, then hire more as needed, probably 2 for the first few month, until the product is ready.
Is Curitiba the right Place to do this??? Any other choices/recommendations.

Obrigado!!!

#2

If you want good professionals, put in mind that you’ll pay more than average. Hardly a good architect will prefer change a stable career to a risky job. Maybe a good programmer you can find paying a normal salary, but you are taking the risk that atract some “bad programmers” trying to make more money than their respective jobs.

You also can try small towns, like Blumenau, Florianopolis, Joinville. All these cities are localized in Santa Catarina. In places like these, you can spent a little bit less and still pay a good salary.

#3

Considering the chance to find a Swing Java Programmer with required skills is more tough than a web site developer, it will raise up a bit more to the final price. I really don´t know the situation about Curitiba, it´s seems to be a good place about computer programming. I desagree the point Marcio embased, small towns tends to be more difficult to find a profissional man with required working skills, maybe some big one city might be more easier to find out and chasing, but also the costs will be more affecteds.

#4

These three cities have a good IT industry. I agree with you that he will find more professionals in big cities, but he seems to be trying to low costs.

Try to move for a smaller place with a good IT industry could be a good idea.

#5

Hi,

The salary question still oppened, go to www.apinfo.com every year they do a research about salary and other trends.

Select the yellow link Veja : resultado da pesquisa apinfo 2010 - Salários e mercado de TI.

then near the end you have a list of applied salarys by state (not by city, but that is a beginning) "Tabela salarial " + State Name

Ok, salarys are in the way to be resolved.

But, i don`t know from where you are, and i think you may not know about the laws related to work and salary.

the taxes (or tributes i don’t know the best term) aplies to what you pay to the employees too (so the salary costs more than what is in that salary table).

Good part is that exported software pays no taxes.

#6

I live in Parana (the capital is Curitiba) and I guess that a really good swing programmer should ask something like 70k/year in Curitiba. Florianopolis may not be different.

Why are you considering to create a start up in Brazil? I’ve heard that it’s not the best country for it. Don’t get me wrong, I love this country, but isn’t USA or UK the best place for it?

I’m sorry to intrude: where are you from?

#7

Ok you guys raised some really good questions: why Brasil?

-I am Canadian, I’ve in the the software business for over 20 years, but not a serious programmer.
-I’ve already built and sold 2 IT companies in Canada
-I took a few years off, and now I am starting again, but with a different vision:
Free Software with Paid Services - a combination of Software as A Service and software licensing models.
-I tried to start the company in Nicaragua last year - where i lived for the last 5 years - but the level of education leaves a lot to be desired.
-The US or Canada are too expensive for their own good - making the model Free Software + selling services not possible, unless I outsource all the work, or have an office outside of the US or
Canada, which is exactly what i am looking to do. Outsourcing does not work for what i want to do.
-I hate snow. I do not think anyone should feel this cold.
-I’ve been to Brazil on 3 occasions for business, and was always impressed by many aspects - i was trying to sell software to Tigre - almost did too. But then they decided they can build one
cheaper in house, which they did! I am sure it was more expensive though!

  • Brasil offers excellent human resources in terms of potential language skills - specially Spanish and even English - to offer the Services required - Also Infra Structure: internet ad telephony.
  • I think with the right work environment, and the right participation in the business - meaning not only salary but actually benefits from actual profits - I can attract and retain excellent talent.
  • India, which I I just spent so much time investigating is not any cheaper at the end - Salaries are cheaper yes, talent is very HIGH, but there are other factors:
    The Long flight, time difference, loyalty: People change their jobs often as they change underwear! Culture in Brazil is better. As i said - with the right combination of salary and profit sharing,
    the talent is there and can be attracted and kept involved in the business.

About salaries: 70K for a very experienced programmer + Profit sharing is too high. 70K as a base salary without profit sharing is close to US 44K per year! In India this would be more like US 30K to 34K for a Masters in Computer Science with some 5+ years of experience. But then again look at my comments above, so not sure if this is good or bad, it is certainly more than i thought!

I was expecting to pay in the range of US$1000 to US$1400 per month. More than this, the competition from Chile, Argentina ( :? :? ) etc. becomes attractive (but they do not have Bossa Nova)

Am I too low on the salary?

#8

Brazil’s not India, bro. Hehehe, just kidding. :smiley:

The cost of living in Curitiba is much much better when compared to Sao Paulo or Rio de Janeiro. With 2k/month a single guy can live. But an experienced or very good Swing programmer can have much more than 2k/month (there are outrageous salaries, like something around 6k/month without taxes (which mean that is even higher than this, plus food, transportation, health-care).

Some people think that way. I think that way. A reasonable, good salary, a great work environment and the challenge are my motivation, so that would be awesome for a guy like me. But there are a lot of people who think different and only want a very high salary.

That problem occurr here too (but I guess that is with less frequency). If you provide a great (very great, I’d say) work environment, a good salary, great food and motivating stuffs (like coding dojos, training and valorize your employees’ knowledge) that’s hardly going to happen with your company.

Chile, Argentina, Uruguay… ok. But bro, you must know something: Curitiba is one of the best big-cities. Not only in Brazil, I’d say in the world. In Brazil, it competes with Florianopolis and Porto Alegre. Sao Paulo and Rio, don’t get me wrong. I love Campinas, but I love even more Brazil’s south.

And in Argentina there’s tango :slight_smile:

I don’t know if I discouraged you. If I did, sorry, it was not my intention. Good start up are very welcome here (at least by me), but there are a lot of different kind of people and programmers in Brazil. There are committed people, but not very experienced. There are very experienced and very very high skill developers, that change jobs in a very weird way. And there are those very nice programmers and very nice people (like me hehehe, jk), which just would like to have a decent salary, a great work environment and work with great people.

Want my opinion (22-year-old-bro that likes to drink beer, develop new software every day and is motivated by few things)? I’d say go for it :slight_smile:

#9

BTW, if you want to see what drives the motivation in the work environment, you should check companies like globo.com, Caelum, GoNow, Giran, Ilegra and Yahoo.

#10

[quote=sherif6]
Am I too low on the salary?[/quote]

If you aim the south-side of the country the aswer is: Yes, you are too low on then salary. You probably gonna have to choose between talented ‘xor’ experienced people.

The northeast region of the country looks more suitable to your budget requirements, but have a differente set of pros and cons.

#11

Where is the joke, “bro”? Brazil is definitely not India.

Just for starters:
India’s rural population represent over 70% of the total population, in Brazil it is 17%;
life expectancy in India is 6 years less than Brazil;
India’s infant mortality rate is more than double of Brazil’s;
only 61% of Indians are literate against Brazil’s 88%;
GDP per capita in India is one third of Brazil’s…

Do we have problems in our country? Definitely. But India is a hell hole compared to Brazil.

#12

Ok esmiralha, thanks. You’re right. Period.

#13

I have been checking around, and really it seems like a salary of about US$32K to US$38K seems to be the norm. i will just have to do with fewer people.

Where to advertise the position, is my next question?

Will people prefer to work from:

  1. their home - internet - with meetings 2 or 3 times per week
  2. in a small office full time.

Does working from home affect the salary?

Are people more interested in contract positions or employee contracts.

#14

[quote=sherif6]I have been checking around, and really it seems like a salary of about US$32K to US$38K seems to be the norm. i will just have to do with fewer people.

Where to advertise the position, is my next question?[/quote]
You can try OndeTrabalhar.com. If you have some difficulties with the language, I can translate for you. There’s Apinfo and Catho too.

But I guess that if you put the advertise in something like StackOverflow’s Career that can work too (or, if you want, a advertise in a brazilian’s website that refers to that).

[quote=sherif6]Will people prefer to work from:

  1. their home - internet - with meetings 2 or 3 times per week
  2. in a small office full time.

Does working from home affect the salary?

Are people more interested in contract positions or employee contracts.[/quote]
I guess that varies from people to people.

#15

Recomendo aprender bem sobre a linguagem e cultura do país antes de pensar em qualquer negócio por aqui.

Boa sorte.

#16

[quote=sherif6]Hi Everyone,

I am looking at Curitiba (and surrounding area) as a place to start a small IT firm - development, services, and support.
Before I make my mind up, I have many questions, but the most important is:
What are the average Salaries for Java programmers (Swing mainly) with 3+ years of experience?
I will probably start off with 1 Architect, who will help plan the project, then hire more as needed, probably 2 for the first few month, until the product is ready.
Is Curitiba the right Place to do this??? Any other choices/recommendations.

Obrigado!!![/quote]

Please read the private message I sent you.

If you come start an IT firm in Brazil without knowing Portuguese or understanding the local law and customs you can get yourself into a lot of trouble much quicker than you could imagine.

It’s true, as people have said, that this isn’t India. Few people really speak English and it’s expensive here. It could be the most frustrating thing you’ve ever done. Think twice before doing anything rash.

You have been warned.

#17

[quote=sherif6]Hi Everyone,

I am looking at Curitiba (and surrounding area) as a place to start a small IT firm - development, services, and support.
Before I make my mind up, I have many questions, but the most important is:
What are the average Salaries for Java programmers (Swing mainly) with 3+ years of experience?
I will probably start off with 1 Architect, who will help plan the project, then hire more as needed, probably 2 for the first few month, until the product is ready.
Is Curitiba the right Place to do this??? Any other choices/recommendations.

Obrigado!!![/quote]

Yes Curitiba the right Place to do this…

#18

[quote=sherif6]I have been checking around, and really it seems like a salary of about US$32K to US$38K seems to be the norm. i will just have to do with fewer people.

Where to advertise the position, is my next question?

Will people prefer to work from:

  1. their home - internet - with meetings 2 or 3 times per week
  2. in a small office full time.

Does working from home affect the salary?

Are people more interested in contract positions or employee contracts.

[/quote]

choise 1 is much more attractive and you can pay better salary than choise 2, because the custs of employer transports is very better…

#19

Hello sherif6.

I live in Curitiba, and yes, I personally think that the south of Brazil is a nice place for starting a company, specially in the capital cities (Curitiba, Porto Alegre and Florianópolis).

The advantages here is the high quality of the educational system, compared to some other areas in Brazil, the quality of the city compared with other also (traffic, violence, etc), and the fact that there is a lot of foreigner companies here ( like HSBC, Exxon, Volvo IT), so it’s easies to find developers who have fluent english and experience with other cultures.

But, considering the price you want to pay the salaries, you will only get recent graduated folks, it will be a lot harder to find experienced and qualified developers.

#20

Alguém sabe o que acontece quando um brasileiro escreve em pt-br em um forum,chat, jogo,etc estadunidense?